All illustrations by Joel Benjamin
Garden of Delete, the new album from Oneohtrix Point Never, comes out tomorrow. For those of us who grapple with mental illness, scary minds, or just life itself, this album holds up a mirror to the experience of powerlessness in the face of one's own brain. Recognizable in OPN's sounds are both the beauty and horror of existence, when the trajectory of our own consciousness is really out of our hands.
In preparing to talk with Oneohtrix Point Never's Daniel Lopatin about feelings, wants, and existence, I imagined that the conversation would be easy and lacking social anxiety. Lopatin and I are internet friends and the convo would take place online. Yet I found that I was still nervous to talk to him, namely because he has more integrity than any other artist I know. Throughout our conversation, I feared that he would discover I am a loser and never text me again.
So Sad Today: Do you
have depression?
Daniel Lopatin: Yeah, I have it. I
don't deal with it therapeutically or medically, which is dumb I guess. You?
Lol. Yes, I have it. But
I ask because one thing that resonates about your music, particularly this
album, is that it contains a weave. Like, every song braids both the darkness
and the light. No one track is ever just one. So in listening, I can't rest in a
gentle moment and be like:
OK, that horror is over, it's all going to be OK.
And the same is true of
anxiety and depression. Like, the moment you think you're going to be OK,
things get sinister again.
Well
I think that maybe the weave of many competing psychological horrors /
seductions etc. is a way of me being honest with myself about stuff. I need my
"art work" or "entertainment work" or whatever to have
empathy for or connection to the way I experience the world as a person. I have
a hard time making a linear-idea song, because that's not the way my thoughts
work. Or a linear-texture song, because for me it's impossible to marginalize
all the context around a specific texture (other textures).
Right, there is a
definite humanity in your work beneath the electronic tools. In the song
Sticky
Drama
, I feel like I can hear the presence of a human voice, maybe trying
to be heard or maybe trying to hear itself, in a fucked up world.
Yeah,
it's all very human.
Do you feel cool?
I
did until I saw that you have like ten times the amount of Twitter followers that
I do.
That's funny because I
always assume whatever I have or do is wrong. If I have more followers than
you, I assume I am shittier than you and have less integrity. Whereas I look at
you and perceive you to have a protective moat comprised of black smoke, video
game glitches, and wantless cosmic isolation (as opposed to my isolation, which
feels want-y) that shields you from making such comparisons.
That you associate video game aesthetics and black smoke with
my oeuvre is indicative of how lame my brand actually is... like I think I do all
this cool shit but to the average celebrity I'm at best a magician or clown.
Then again you just totally complimented me on seeming wantless, which I didn't
notice because I was so busy feeling humiliated. Is that something you want for
yourself, to be wantless? Like a chill object floating in space?
The
important part is your sacred moat, which provides the mystique, distance, and
fascination. The moat's composition is less pyrotechnics, and more your inherent
shroud of mystery—like, the smoke is coming from inside you. It's aura, not
David Blaine.
I relate you to video games, because to me they are elusive—not
what I loved as a child (pretending my bike was a horse, closet eating) so I
exoticize and elevate them. On certain tracks on
Delete I get a game vibe. The song Child of Rage is a
childhood videogame machinegun hell, as synonymous with the horrific
powerlessness of childhood. But then there's a peaceful valley at the end and
it's all going to be all right even though it's totally not.
You're right. I just so badly want to be thought of as like...
solid since I don't use reverb THAT much. Like so scared of being reverbcore.
The future is definitely aridcore, with a small chance of downpourcore.
Childhood is totally violent (in retrospect). Only the traumatic memories
prevail.
Traumacore.
Adolescent longingcore. And yeah, all I've ever wanted is to be chill and
floating in space. Like, who wouldn't want that? Whenever I hear the word
"spirituality" I still think "heroin." What about you? Would you want that or
nah?
I'm down for indefinitely chilling as long as I'm not
self-aware during it. That seems like it could be torture on some level but a
lot of people pray for that so who knows. Maybe being "alive" offers us an
embarrassment of feelings we cope with by dying. Bottom line is I just don't
want to have to make any choices or judgment calls beyond my time on earth lol.
Related: Watch our interview with Daniel Lopatin at his home in Bushwick
Right,
like some people strive to be one with their inner witness—the one who watches
themselves. But for you, the witness might be the torturer and not the thing
that sets you free? I guess I pretend you are wantless so as to feel worse
about my want. How want-y are you, on a scale of 1-10, re: success, death, ego
death, any other form of personal annihilation, your parents' approval, to be
swept away into a sensual mystic with another human being, food, money, weed,
hoes.
2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 0, 10, 10, 1, 4. I'm materialistic but
in the name of distracting myself to death. Food is 10 and the only way to get
it is money, so 10 for that as well. I really don't care if anyone thinks I'm
special or not, I just want to be able to live my life without thinking about
money all the time, or where I'm going to get it. I get into all of this as a
cast member on VH1's
Death & Hoes.
Do you ever wonder if you're just a piece of software that aliens invented so
they could research what it's like to have zero self-esteem?
No,
and that's my problem. I blame myself for everything, never aliens.
What is usually going through your mind when you're chewing
food?
How
many calories are in this. What are your fav foods?
Russian foods... Can you remember the first poem you wrote
and what was it like?
Yes. I was eight and it was about food. The want and fetishization of candy.
I read
in this interview that when you fall out of love with a
piece of music it's a "melancholic experience," so you are looking to make
music that will "grow with you as you get older" rather than music geared to a "'
get addicted to it and throw it away' mentality."
I respect this and it's something I value in art: universality of feeling and
timelessness of experience. It's like infatuation vs. love: an intoxicating,
short-lived romp vs. love that lasts for a long time but is less flashy and
possibly more work. Do you ever create a piece of music thinking it's going to
be something long-lasting, the real deal, only to realize later it was an
addictive throwaway. Have you ever been really hurt by music?
I'm hurt by music all the time. I'm hurt pretty much every
time I turn on Vevo. I can love formal aspects of music without any kind of
emotional commitment so it's not like bad songwriting or bad arrangement or
production hurts me. It's the bullshit around music that hurts me. My friend
Arthur (Autre Ne Veut), the whole conceit of
his new record is
that we're all dying to buy into the performance of honesty. We'll pay money to
see an artist say something in earnest. That earnesty is somehow something "new"
to be performed well and then exploited as a way to individuate "real" from "fake"
is in my opinion a tedious and ugly thing happening in pop music. Pop music has
always been about the fake. If I want fake real I'll watch
Top Chef or some shit. There's other super problematized shit I
could go into.
What
about that 'performance of honesty' pisses you off most? Is it the feeling that
a genre that should provide escape is being co-opted? Is it the emotional
hustle—that the artists are being fake, but pretending to be real, and thus
getting away with something?
No it's just that most celebrities' idea of honesty is so
tedious. They're asking "why" a lot and then crying. It's essentially the Nancy
Kerrigan incident but taken to the most boring levels possible.
What about
when this happens in "alt" culture. What about when alt bro musicians pretend
to be "sensitive" and "hurt" and "alone" in their music so they can have sex with
seven people a night and not text them back.
They're boring, too but I'm more interested in their attempts
to be "real" because there's a good chance I know them, which amplifies their
dishonesty in comical ways. The actual problem is that fake has become
unappealing, and that because everyone is their own "brand manager" there's no
objective intervention—like it's one thing if I'm hearing about person from
band X's struggle via let's say... a poet for instance. But straight from the
horse's mouth is weirdly way too curated.
One
could say So Sad Today is a performance of honesty, in that any attempt to
reveal ourselves is in some way curated. If a performance artist takes a shit
onstage, she chooses to take that shit. It may be a genuinely vulnerable and
authentic act, but there is always something more vulnerable, often way more
subtle—very not alt, like where she does her banking—that she would never
reveal.
I think of So Sad Today as a hyperbolic, fabricated version
of some "realness" known as Melissa Broder. Or some composite of the many
Melissas through the ages. But there is also a very adolescent thing about the
way you talk as So Sad Today... it's like Daria in that there's these very adult
ideas injected into an otherwise teenage lexicon.
In a
lot of ways I'm still 16. Like my mind is older but my heart or impulse control
is maybe 14. There is that adult/adolescent juxtaposition in
Garden of
Delete
. I get the vibe of a sensitive kid hiding in video games: the
sadness and terror of childhood and teenhood where you have zero control over
your life. We carry those emotions with us forever, but perhaps are able to
push them under the surface more as adults. But I feel like
Garden of Delete,
particularly in the song "I Bite
Through It
," is lifting up that surface.
Yeah. Sometimes I see myself in the mirror and I literally am
like
Oh wow I'm just a more grizzled version of this creature I vaguely
remember from the past
, and I still eat cereal 400 times a day out of
uncertainty. The rest is hard to picture now. My hygiene has improved, and I'm
7 percent more self-assured.
Follow Daniel Lopatin and So Sad Today on Twitter.